From fabbe at paniq.net  Thu Aug  5 05:06:18 2004
From: fabbe at paniq.net (Fabian Fagerholm)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 22:06:18 +0300
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
Message-ID: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>

Hi guys,

Are there any plans to make a new release of Albatross soon? :)

There's some stuff in the development version that could well be
released. I'm afraid chances are slim it could make the sarge release of
Debian, but who knows?

Cheers,
-- 
Fabian Fagerholm <fabbe at paniq.net>
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From tchur at optushome.com.au  Thu Aug  5 06:16:44 2004
From: tchur at optushome.com.au (Tim Churches)
Date: 05 Aug 2004 06:16:44 +1000
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
In-Reply-To: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>
Message-ID: <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio>

On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 05:06, Fabian Fagerholm wrote:
> Hi guys,
> 
> Are there any plans to make a new release of Albatross soon? :)
> 
> There's some stuff in the development version that could well be
> released. I'm afraid chances are slim it could make the sarge release of
> Debian, but who knows?

Yes, our applications rely on features in the latest "dev" release - it
would be nice if that became an official release at least.
-- 

Tim C

PGP/GnuPG Key 1024D/EAF993D0 available from keyservers everywhere
or at http://members.optushome.com.au/tchur/pubkey.asc
Key fingerprint = 8C22 BF76 33BA B3B5 1D5B  EB37 7891 46A9 EAF9 93D0





From neel at mediapulse.com  Thu Aug  5 11:23:51 2004
From: neel at mediapulse.com (Michael Neel)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 21:23:51 -0400
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel> <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio>
Message-ID: <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>

> On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 05:06, Fabian Fagerholm wrote:
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > Are there any plans to make a new release of Albatross soon? :)
> >
> > There's some stuff in the development version that could well be
> > released. I'm afraid chances are slim it could make the sarge release of
> > Debian, but who knows?
>
> Yes, our applications rely on features in the latest "dev" release - it
> would be nice if that became an official release at least.

We decided to start adding in some features to Albatross ourselves, since
the list and development slowed down early this year.  It got to the point
we thought it better to work on it as a new project, based off of the old,
rather than continue to treat it as Albatross with patches, which if they
didn't get added could leave us with alot of work needed after each release.
So we decided to call it SnakeSkin, and changed the tags to ss- vs al- to
make it clear we wern't attempting to run application written for albatross
under snakeskin.

SnakeSkin is coming at the design from a slightly different view point.  The
vibe I've picked up here is that most Albatross developers are supporting a
few large applications that have long development times.  While we do have
applications that fit that descriptions (I'm working on one atm and two year
long projects are now ending their beta test phase), we also have several
projects much smaller in scale.  Add to this that our designers now use the
system for normal public websites (the template system is pretty flexable
and they know a programmer can always add a tag to get them out of a jam).
So our focus has been getting snakeskin to scale down rather than up.

To do this, we've been adding in features (or keeping them in a list for
when we can) to put common tasks into the system.  The first of these was
SQL support, both into the application and template.  Tags that got sql
attributes were exec, for, and select, and also added some ctx methods to
get a cursor, database conection, and a quick execute method. We also added
in more paging options to jump to a page, or goto the first or last page.
We replaced the way escaping works with a system to allow either url style
escaping (%20) or html escaping (&nbsp;) and mark some characters as 'safe'
so they wouldn't be escaped.  I added in letting dicts be used as lists can
be in input tags (nameexpr).  There is the option of using expr in an expand
to dynamically name the macro to be run.  Last of the current additions is a
request class to be used with mod_python and Apache 2.0 as a filter (I use
this currently on a site to use albatross to 'skin' and cgi/perl based bbs).

On our list is logging support, profile help, and some of the macro
additions for arguments mentioned here on the list.  A biggie on the list is
data validation, both server and client (javascript).  And docs never hurt.

If there is any intrest we can setup a quick site and mailing list for
snakeskin.  Development is ongoing pretty rapidly atm, so I wouldn't count
on a site using snakeskin now being able to upgrade without some tweaks.
We've alwyas installed albatross/snakeskin per site instead of in
site-packages so that we wouldn't have to update 30 some sites for each
release, they could be updated as needed (say along with a site upgrade).

Mike



From djc at object-craft.com.au  Thu Aug  5 12:07:58 2004
From: djc at object-craft.com.au (Dave Cole)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 12:07:58 +1000
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
In-Reply-To: <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel> <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>
Message-ID: <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au>

Michael Neel wrote:
>>On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 05:06, Fabian Fagerholm wrote:
>>
>>>Hi guys,
>>>
>>>Are there any plans to make a new release of Albatross soon? :)
>>>
>>>There's some stuff in the development version that could well be
>>>released. I'm afraid chances are slim it could make the sarge release of
>>>Debian, but who knows?
>>
>>Yes, our applications rely on features in the latest "dev" release - it
>>would be nice if that became an official release at least.
> 
> 
> We decided to start adding in some features to Albatross ourselves, since
> the list and development slowed down early this year.  It got to the point
> we thought it better to work on it as a new project, based off of the old,
> rather than continue to treat it as Albatross with patches, which if they
> didn't get added could leave us with alot of work needed after each release.
> So we decided to call it SnakeSkin, and changed the tags to ss- vs al- to
> make it clear we wern't attempting to run application written for albatross
> under snakeskin.
> 
> SnakeSkin is coming at the design from a slightly different view point.  The
> vibe I've picked up here is that most Albatross developers are supporting a
> few large applications that have long development times.  While we do have
> applications that fit that descriptions (I'm working on one atm and two year
> long projects are now ending their beta test phase), we also have several
> projects much smaller in scale.  Add to this that our designers now use the
> system for normal public websites (the template system is pretty flexable
> and they know a programmer can always add a tag to get them out of a jam).
> So our focus has been getting snakeskin to scale down rather than up.
> 
> To do this, we've been adding in features (or keeping them in a list for
> when we can) to put common tasks into the system.  The first of these was
> SQL support, both into the application and template.  Tags that got sql
> attributes were exec, for, and select, and also added some ctx methods to
> get a cursor, database conection, and a quick execute method. We also added
> in more paging options to jump to a page, or goto the first or last page.
> We replaced the way escaping works with a system to allow either url style
> escaping (%20) or html escaping (&nbsp;) and mark some characters as 'safe'
> so they wouldn't be escaped.  I added in letting dicts be used as lists can
> be in input tags (nameexpr).  There is the option of using expr in an expand
> to dynamically name the macro to be run.  Last of the current additions is a
> request class to be used with mod_python and Apache 2.0 as a filter (I use
> this currently on a site to use albatross to 'skin' and cgi/perl based bbs).
> 
> On our list is logging support, profile help, and some of the macro
> additions for arguments mentioned here on the list.  A biggie on the list is
> data validation, both server and client (javascript).  And docs never hurt.
> 
> If there is any intrest we can setup a quick site and mailing list for
> snakeskin.  Development is ongoing pretty rapidly atm, so I wouldn't count
> on a site using snakeskin now being able to upgrade without some tweaks.
> We've alwyas installed albatross/snakeskin per site instead of in
> site-packages so that we wouldn't have to update 30 some sites for each
> release, they could be updated as needed (say along with a site upgrade).

That all sounds quite exciting.  Will the license for SnakeSkin allow 
code to go in the other direction?  If some of the ideas prove to be 
very good I would like to have the option of migrating them back into 
Albatross.

There are lots of ideas that we have for Albatross, we are just 
reluctant to disrupt what is already there for an unknown return.  As 
you rightly point out - we are mindful of disruption to existing long 
running project developments and are uncomfortable experimenting with 
that user base.

- Dave

-- 
http://www.object-craft.com.au


From fabbe at paniq.net  Thu Aug  5 19:00:46 2004
From: fabbe at paniq.net (Fabian Fagerholm)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 12:00:46 +0300
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
In-Reply-To: <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au>
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>
	 <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>
	 <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au>
Message-ID: <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel>

On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 12:07 +1000, Dave Cole wrote:
> That all sounds quite exciting.  Will the license for SnakeSkin allow 
> code to go in the other direction?  If some of the ideas prove to be 
> very good I would like to have the option of migrating them back into 
> Albatross.
> 
> There are lots of ideas that we have for Albatross, we are just 
> reluctant to disrupt what is already there for an unknown return.  As 
> you rightly point out - we are mindful of disruption to existing long 
> running project developments and are uncomfortable experimenting with 
> that user base.

Just throwing ideas into the air here, but how about setting up a public
CVS (or similar revision control system) repository for development of
Albatross-based toolkits?

Object Craft could maintain the "Albatross" branch, which would have a
conservative release policy. The "SnakeSkin" branch, while not being
labeled as a development or unstable branch, would allow new features to
enter more quickly and would have a rapid release cycle. Any number of
development branches could exist for experiments and testing.

Would it be possible for Object Craft, Mediapulse and the Open Source
community (Debian in particular) to collaborate in this way?

-- 
Fabian Fagerholm <fabbe at paniq.net>
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From neel at mediapulse.com  Fri Aug  6 08:01:24 2004
From: neel at mediapulse.com (Michael C. Neel)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 18:01:24 -0400
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
In-Reply-To: <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel>
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>
	 <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>
	 <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au>  <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel>
Message-ID: <1091743284.18286.22.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>

To Dave, yes it will be/is an open source license.  We wouldn't change
that, and we'll either just do a BSD-style template license or use the
Python Software Foundation License, if only for the added feature that
it's listed on opensource.org as a blessed open source license.  ATM I'm
looking at the details of the second (I'm familiar with how to go about
the first).

On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 05:00, Fabian Fagerholm wrote:
> Just throwing ideas into the air here, but how about setting up a public
> CVS (or similar revision control system) repository for development of
> Albatross-based toolkits?
> 
> Object Craft could maintain the "Albatross" branch, which would have a
> conservative release policy. The "SnakeSkin" branch, while not being
> labeled as a development or unstable branch, would allow new features to
> enter more quickly and would have a rapid release cycle. Any number of
> development branches could exist for experiments and testing.
> 
> Would it be possible for Object Craft, Mediapulse and the Open Source
> community (Debian in particular) to collaborate in this way?

So this would be like Mozilla, with both Mozilla suite and Firefox
projects.  I like the idea because it lets each project tailor itself to
the developers closer (Mediapulse not concerned with past code as much
as ObjectCraft).  I know in the past this has come up and maintaining a
public cvs server isn't something objectcraft wanted to get into, and
neither would mediapulse, this isn't the only project on our cvs server
=).

I'll step in here and say though mediapulse can take care of getting the
server and details though something like sourceforge, which is pretty
much what we would have done anyway.  That will give us a public base
for a bug system, mailing lists, homepage, cvs server, downloads, etc. 
I know from first hand experience sf's servers are sometimes a pain to
deal with (and down at the worst times for a developer, lol), but they
do support a great number of projects that cope so we could too.  This
way, the only thing objectcraft would need to do it check in albatross
to sf's cvs server and keep it in sync with their local server.  The
project can be called something generic like python-web, with two
modules in the cvs server, albatross and snakeskin.

Other than the cvs server, and maybe the release tarballs in the
downloads section, it's up the the objectcraft guys how much of sf they
want to use.  Having a mailing list, wiki, etc already I'm sure I
wouldn't want to move that if it were us, at least not at the start.

If the above sounds good, let me know and I'll get the ball rolling.

Mike



From fabbe at paniq.net  Fri Aug  6 17:01:56 2004
From: fabbe at paniq.net (Fabian Fagerholm)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 10:01:56 +0300
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
In-Reply-To: <1091743284.18286.22.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>
	 <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>
	 <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au>  <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel>
	 <1091743284.18286.22.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
Message-ID: <1091775716.3092.44.camel@kernel>

On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 18:01 -0400, Michael C. Neel wrote:
> To Dave, yes it will be/is an open source license.  We wouldn't change
> that, and we'll either just do a BSD-style template license or use the
> Python Software Foundation License, if only for the added feature that
> it's listed on opensource.org as a blessed open source license.  ATM I'm
> looking at the details of the second (I'm familiar with how to go about
> the first).

May I suggest the following:
      * If you consider the BSD license, the X11 (aka. MIT) license is
        simpler, equivalent, and less prone to problems. In any case,
        the "modified BSD license" (without the advertising clause) is
        certainly more welcome than the old one.
      * If you consider the PSF license, make sure you use the most
        recent version. Certain older versions have a number of
        problems.
      * If you can, consider the GPL or LGPL.

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't mean to provoke, but my own experience and
that shared by others suggests that these are points worth considering.

> I'll step in here and say though mediapulse can take care of getting the
> server and details though something like sourceforge, which is pretty
> much what we would have done anyway.  That will give us a public base
> for a bug system, mailing lists, homepage, cvs server, downloads, etc. 
> I know from first hand experience sf's servers are sometimes a pain to
> deal with (and down at the worst times for a developer, lol), but they
> do support a great number of projects that cope so we could too.

An alternative to SourceForge is Debian's Alioth, which uses the Gforge
software in use at SourceForge. Alioth has less projects and thus less
load, but it may be too unpolished for this use. It's run by volunteers,
so response times to bug reports may vary. Look at
http://alioth.debian.org/

Cheers,
-- 
Fabian Fagerholm <fabbe at paniq.net>
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From neel at mediapulse.com  Fri Aug  6 23:17:24 2004
From: neel at mediapulse.com (Michael C. Neel)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:17:24 -0400
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
In-Reply-To: <1091775716.3092.44.camel@kernel>
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>
	 <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>
	 <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au>  <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel>
	 <1091743284.18286.22.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
	 <1091775716.3092.44.camel@kernel>
Message-ID: <1091798244.24738.21.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>

On Fri, 2004-08-06 at 03:01, Fabian Fagerholm wrote:
> May I suggest the following:
>       * If you consider the BSD license, the X11 (aka. MIT) license is
>         simpler, equivalent, and less prone to problems. In any case,
>         the "modified BSD license" (without the advertising clause) is
>         certainly more welcome than the old one.

We are going with the BSD, the newer version.  The no endorsement clause
is important to the powers that be, which is understandable.  Plus, this
is the license of Albatross, which must be maintained as well, and
solves any possible license conflict issues.

>       * If you consider the PSF license, make sure you use the most
>         recent version. Certain older versions have a number of
>         problems.

Though projects are often release under the PSF, I've come to learn the
PSF isn't desiging the license to be used that way.  As such, reusing
the PSF license would need a bit more time for me to get past legal (who
have already seen a bsd lic from me on our axe project).


>       * If you can, consider the GPL or LGPL.

Since we are a company that mixes closed and open source code in a
project, I am not a fan of using the GPL.  I do not think it's needed to
have a clause to require modification to be provided back in source.  In
fact, the ability of a BSD license to allow the source to be closed is a
reassurance to our clients - basically they know no laywer will pop up
on their door step asking for the code for their internal systems
because we used something opensource to build it.  And in pratice, there
would be no benefit to having their code open anyway, it's too specific
to them to be of use elsewhere.

In general I like the BSD license because it protects the developers and
gives freedom to users, where as the the GPL places requirments upon the
users.

> I'm not a lawyer, and I don't mean to provoke, but my own experience and
> that shared by others suggests that these are points worth considering.

Always worth taling about, and I think too often these points are overl
looked!


> An alternative to SourceForge is Debian's Alioth, which uses the Gforge
> software in use at SourceForge. Alioth has less projects and thus less
> load, but it may be too unpolished for this use. It's run by volunteers,
> so response times to bug reports may vary. Look at
> http://alioth.debian.org/
> 

We are fedora people here, so we can't cope with anything debian.  J/K
=p.  It might be a week before we get the project going (legal can be
slow to read two paragraphs, lol), but we've used SF in the past so
we'll probably be lazy and just use it now.

Mike

__________________________________ 

michael.neel at mediapulse.com
vice president of information systems
865.675.4455 x30
800.380.4514

www.mediapulse.com
__________________________________



From tchur at optushome.com.au  Sat Aug  7 08:05:10 2004
From: tchur at optushome.com.au (Tim Churches)
Date: 07 Aug 2004 08:05:10 +1000
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
In-Reply-To: <1091798244.24738.21.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>
	 <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>
	 <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au> <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel>
	 <1091743284.18286.22.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
	 <1091775716.3092.44.camel@kernel>
	 <1091798244.24738.21.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
Message-ID: <1091829910.1251.8.camel@emilio>

On Fri, 2004-08-06 at 23:17, Michael C. Neel wrote:
> On Fri, 2004-08-06 at 03:01, Fabian Fagerholm wrote:
> > May I suggest the following:
> >       * If you consider the BSD license, the X11 (aka. MIT) license is
> >         simpler, equivalent, and less prone to problems. In any case,
> >         the "modified BSD license" (without the advertising clause) is
> >         certainly more welcome than the old one.
> 
> We are going with the BSD, the newer version.  The no endorsement clause
> is important to the powers that be, which is understandable.  Plus, this
> is the license of Albatross, which must be maintained as well, and
> solves any possible license conflict issues.
---snip---
> We are fedora people here, so we can't cope with anything debian.  J/K
> =p.  It might be a week before we get the project going (legal can be
> slow to read two paragraphs, lol), but we've used SF in the past so
> we'll probably be lazy and just use it now.

These are very pleasing developments - at the very least it means I can
now tell anyone who asks that Albatross is a mature package actively
being supported and developed by more than one company, and point them
to the evidence of that fact. It reduces the perceived risk of using an
obscure Web app framework considerably. Not that I personally considered
there to be any significant risk, but you know what corporate IT
managers are like.

-- 

Tim C

PGP/GnuPG Key 1024D/EAF993D0 available from keyservers everywhere
or at http://members.optushome.com.au/tchur/pubkey.asc
Key fingerprint = 8C22 BF76 33BA B3B5 1D5B  EB37 7891 46A9 EAF9 93D0





From fabbe at paniq.net  Sat Aug  7 16:03:09 2004
From: fabbe at paniq.net (Fabian Fagerholm)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 09:03:09 +0300
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
In-Reply-To: <1091798244.24738.21.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>
	 <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>
	 <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au>  <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel>
	 <1091743284.18286.22.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
	 <1091775716.3092.44.camel@kernel>
	 <1091798244.24738.21.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
Message-ID: <1091858589.3092.140.camel@kernel>

On Fri, 2004-08-06 at 09:17 -0400, Michael C. Neel wrote:
> We are going with the BSD, the newer version.  The no endorsement clause
> is important to the powers that be, which is understandable.  Plus, this
> is the license of Albatross, which must be maintained as well, and
> solves any possible license conflict issues.

Excellent; this will certainly allow code to be shared freely among the
participants.

> Since we are a company that mixes closed and open source code in a
> project, I am not a fan of using the GPL.  I do not think it's needed to
> have a clause to require modification to be provided back in source.
[...]

In this case, I agree with you. With the GPL, you can always license the
code with completely different license for a particular customer --
provided you have copyright on all the code in question. Since this is
not the case for Albatross, BSD seems like a good choice.

> In general I like the BSD license because it protects the developers and
> gives freedom to users, where as the the GPL places requirments upon the
> users.

I do believe that freedom cannot exist without requiring responsibility.
The GPL incorporates that requirement into the license, while the BSD
license trusts everyone to have that responsibility anyway. In that
sense, the BSD license is quite idealistic -- which is commendable.

Well, I'm happy to say that we have exchanged more than two emails
discussing this, without having included a single personal insult! That
seems to be rare these days ;)

> We are fedora people here, so we can't cope with anything debian.  J/K
> =p.

Nevertheless, any improvements coming from my Debian work will be
offered to you, so that at least you'll have to cope with ;)

> It might be a week before we get the project going (legal can be
> slow to read two paragraphs, lol), but we've used SF in the past so
> we'll probably be lazy and just use it now.

That's good. However, I'm a little surprised and worried about the fact
that the Object Craft people haven't participated more in this
discussion. After all, if Object Craft decides not to join in on the SF
project, we are talking about a fork here.

-- 
Fabian Fagerholm <fabbe at paniq.net>
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From neel at mediapulse.com  Sat Aug  7 22:52:29 2004
From: neel at mediapulse.com (Michael Neel)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 08:52:29 -0400
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel> <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton> <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au>  <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel> <1091743284.18286.22.camel@mike.mediapulse.com> <1091775716.3092.44.camel@kernel> <1091798244.24738.21.camel@mike.mediapulse.com> <1091858589.3092.140.camel@kernel>
Message-ID: <000d01c47c7d$65e26ab0$0400a8c0@clapton>

> I do believe that freedom cannot exist without requiring responsibility.
> The GPL incorporates that requirement into the license, while the BSD
> license trusts everyone to have that responsibility anyway. In that
> sense, the BSD license is quite idealistic -- which is commendable.

Yes, that's in a nutshell the difference between the Free Software people
and the Open Source people.  I suppose it will be one of those great
questions you can't really answer, like is a child born with the
understanding of right from wrong, or is it learned?  Still whatever you do,
do not play that free software song anymore... =p

> Well, I'm happy to say that we have exchanged more than two emails
> discussing this, without having included a single personal insult! That
> seems to be rare these days ;)

The difference betweeen python developers and perl?  Oops, there is that
insult!

> That's good. However, I'm a little surprised and worried about the fact
> that the Object Craft people haven't participated more in this
> discussion. After all, if Object Craft decides not to join in on the SF
> project, we are talking about a fork here.

Remember they are aussies, and are asleep when we are awake, plus the
weekend comes sooner to them than to us.  At least it did for me while I was
stationed in Korea, so I assume it's the same down there.

It's not so much if it's a fork or not, it is.  It's that it's a blessed
fork that still works with the parent project and community =D.

Mike



From fabbe at paniq.net  Sun Aug  8 02:46:24 2004
From: fabbe at paniq.net (Fabian Fagerholm)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 19:46:24 +0300
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
In-Reply-To: <000d01c47c7d$65e26ab0$0400a8c0@clapton>
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>
	 <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>
	 <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au>  <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel>
	 <1091743284.18286.22.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
	 <1091775716.3092.44.camel@kernel>
	 <1091798244.24738.21.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
	 <1091858589.3092.140.camel@kernel> <000d01c47c7d$65e26ab0$0400a8c0@clapton>
Message-ID: <1091897184.3092.214.camel@kernel>

We're getting a bit off-topic here, but hey...

On Sat, 2004-08-07 at 08:52 -0400, Michael Neel wrote:
> Yes, that's in a nutshell the difference between the Free Software people
> and the Open Source people.  I suppose it will be one of those great
> questions you can't really answer, like is a child born with the
> understanding of right from wrong, or is it learned?

Actually, the Open Source people have no stance on the issue, since Open
Source is only about a family of software development methodologies, and
does not concern issues of ethics or morality. ;) Still, the debate
predates software by more than 2000 years -- as far as we know, the
first recordings suggest it started off as a differing opinion between
the Sophists on the one hand, and Plato, Socrates and their followers on
the other.

> Still whatever you do, do not play that free software song anymore... =p

You can be quite sure I will not stop; however there is nothing in that
song that would hurt your ears. :)

> Remember they are aussies, and are asleep when we are awake, plus the
> weekend comes sooner to them than to us.  At least it did for me while I was
> stationed in Korea, so I assume it's the same down there.
> 
> It's not so much if it's a fork or not, it is.  It's that it's a blessed
> fork that still works with the parent project and community =D.

You're right, I often forget that the earth is a spheroid. I'll just
have to wait for you guys to have a chance to sort things out.

Cheers,
-- 
Fabian Fagerholm <fabbe at paniq.net>
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From tchur at optushome.com.au  Sun Aug  8 09:21:00 2004
From: tchur at optushome.com.au (Tim Churches)
Date: 08 Aug 2004 09:21:00 +1000
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
In-Reply-To: <000d01c47c7d$65e26ab0$0400a8c0@clapton>
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>
	 <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>
	 <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au> <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel>
	 <1091743284.18286.22.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
	 <1091775716.3092.44.camel@kernel>
	 <1091798244.24738.21.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
	 <1091858589.3092.140.camel@kernel> <000d01c47c7d$65e26ab0$0400a8c0@clapton>
Message-ID: <1091920860.1253.3.camel@emilio>

On Sat, 2004-08-07 at 22:52, Michael Neel wrote:
> > That's good. However, I'm a little surprised and worried about the fact
> > that the Object Craft people haven't participated more in this
> > discussion. After all, if Object Craft decides not to join in on the SF
> > project, we are talking about a fork here.
> 
> Remember they are aussies, and are asleep when we are awake, plus the
> weekend comes sooner to them than to us.

I understand that congratulations are in order for Mark (Object Craft
business manager), or rather, for his partner, who just gave birth to
their first child. I suspect that the Object Craft crew are too busy
downing cleansing ales in celebration to answer emails right now.
-- 

Tim C

PGP/GnuPG Key 1024D/EAF993D0 available from keyservers everywhere
or at http://members.optushome.com.au/tchur/pubkey.asc
Key fingerprint = 8C22 BF76 33BA B3B5 1D5B  EB37 7891 46A9 EAF9 93D0





From neel at mediapulse.com  Sun Aug  8 12:17:55 2004
From: neel at mediapulse.com (Michael Neel)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:17:55 -0400
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel> <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton> <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au> <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel> <1091743284.18286.22.camel@mike.mediapulse.com> <1091775716.3092.44.camel@kernel> <1091798244.24738.21.camel@mike.mediapulse.com> <1091858589.3092.140.camel@kernel> <000d01c47c7d$65e26ab0$0400a8c0@clapton> <1091920860.1253.3.camel@emilio>
Message-ID: <001601c47ced$ea548ec0$0400a8c0@clapton>

> > Remember they are aussies, and are asleep when we are awake, plus the
> > weekend comes sooner to them than to us.
> 
> I understand that congratulations are in order for Mark (Object Craft
> business manager), or rather, for his partner, who just gave birth to
> their first child. I suspect that the Object Craft crew are too busy
> downing cleansing ales in celebration to answer emails right now.

Sub classing are we? =p

Congrats Mark!

Mike


From fabbe at paniq.net  Sun Aug  8 17:29:41 2004
From: fabbe at paniq.net (Fabian Fagerholm)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 10:29:41 +0300
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
In-Reply-To: <1091920860.1253.3.camel@emilio>
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>
	 <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>
	 <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au> <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel>
	 <1091743284.18286.22.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
	 <1091775716.3092.44.camel@kernel>
	 <1091798244.24738.21.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
	 <1091858589.3092.140.camel@kernel> <000d01c47c7d$65e26ab0$0400a8c0@clapton>
	 <1091920860.1253.3.camel@emilio>
Message-ID: <1091950181.3092.218.camel@kernel>

On Sun, 2004-08-08 at 09:21 +1000, Tim Churches wrote:
> I understand that congratulations are in order for Mark (Object Craft
> business manager), or rather, for his partner, who just gave birth to
> their first child. I suspect that the Object Craft crew are too busy
> downing cleansing ales in celebration to answer emails right now.

Congratulations to the whole family, and good luck to the new member!

Cheers,
-- 
Fabian Fagerholm <fabbe at paniq.net>
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From marc at geht.de  Fri Aug  6 17:15:59 2004
From: marc at geht.de (Marc Recht)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:15:59 +0200
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
In-Reply-To: <1091775716.3092.44.camel@kernel>
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>	
 <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>	
 <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au>  <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel>	
 <1091743284.18286.22.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
 <1091775716.3092.44.camel@kernel>
Message-ID: <083226E8A893258F653B5F47@leeloo.intern.geht.de>

>       * If you can, consider the GPL or LGPL.

No, please don't.

IMHO it would make sense to stick to the same license Albatross has.

Cheers,
Marc
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From djc at object-craft.com.au  Mon Aug  9 11:40:00 2004
From: djc at object-craft.com.au (Dave Cole)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 11:40:00 +1000
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
In-Reply-To: <1091858589.3092.140.camel@kernel>
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>	 <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>	 <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au>  <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel>	 <1091743284.18286.22.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>	 <1091775716.3092.44.camel@kernel>	 <1091798244.24738.21.camel@mike.mediapulse.com> <1091858589.3092.140.camel@kernel>
Message-ID: <4116D5F0.8010802@object-craft.com.au>

Fabian Fagerholm wrote:

> That's good. However, I'm a little surprised and worried about the fact
> that the Object Craft people haven't participated more in this
> discussion. After all, if Object Craft decides not to join in on the SF
> project, we are talking about a fork here.

What is being proposed is clearly allowed by the Albatross license.  I 
am supportive of what you are doing and have high hopes that the result 
of the new project will yield benefits to Albatross.

While I am interested in the discussion, it is hard for me to be 
involved without the appearance of bias.  I think it is important that 
this project go ahead (or not) purely on the basis of the people who 
will be driving it.  For that reason I have been standing back.

- Dave

-- 
http://www.object-craft.com.au


From djc at object-craft.com.au  Mon Aug  9 11:44:06 2004
From: djc at object-craft.com.au (Dave Cole)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 11:44:06 +1000
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
In-Reply-To: <1091920860.1253.3.camel@emilio>
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>	 <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>	 <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au> <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel>	 <1091743284.18286.22.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>	 <1091775716.3092.44.camel@kernel>	 <1091798244.24738.21.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>	 <1091858589.3092.140.camel@kernel> <000d01c47c7d$65e26ab0$0400a8c0@clapton> <1091920860.1253.3.camel@emilio>
Message-ID: <4116D6E6.3000304@object-craft.com.au>

Tim Churches wrote:
> On Sat, 2004-08-07 at 22:52, Michael Neel wrote:
> 
>>>That's good. However, I'm a little surprised and worried about the fact
>>>that the Object Craft people haven't participated more in this
>>>discussion. After all, if Object Craft decides not to join in on the SF
>>>project, we are talking about a fork here.
>>
>>Remember they are aussies, and are asleep when we are awake, plus the
>>weekend comes sooner to them than to us.
> 
> 
> I understand that congratulations are in order for Mark (Object Craft
> business manager), or rather, for his partner, who just gave birth to
> their first child. I suspect that the Object Craft crew are too busy
> downing cleansing ales in celebration to answer emails right now.

Mother and baby are well.  Mark is very tired and has been ringing us up 
to check how things are going in his absence.  I suspect he is already 
thinking of work as an escape from the baby. (Anyone who has had a baby 
knows about this trick.)

- Dave

-- 
http://www.object-craft.com.au


From neel at mediapulse.com  Tue Aug 10 01:44:01 2004
From: neel at mediapulse.com (Michael C. Neel)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 11:44:01 -0400
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
In-Reply-To: <4116D6E6.3000304@object-craft.com.au>
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>
	 <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>
	 <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au> <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel>
	 <1091743284.18286.22.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
	 <1091775716.3092.44.camel@kernel>
	 <1091798244.24738.21.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
	 <1091858589.3092.140.camel@kernel> <000d01c47c7d$65e26ab0$0400a8c0@clapton>
	 <1091920860.1253.3.camel@emilio> <4116D6E6.3000304@object-craft.com.au>
Message-ID: <1092066240.11327.12.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>



> Mother and baby are well.  Mark is very tired and has been ringing us up 
> to check how things are going in his absence.  I suspect he is already 
> thinking of work as an escape from the baby. (Anyone who has had a baby 
> knows about this trick.)
> 



If it works like the States, daddy really doesn't have anything to do
the first few days.  Mommy just wants to rest, the nurses keep the baby
most of the time.  Tell work your with Mommy, tell Mommy you need to
check into work, then go home and relax a bit* =p.

Mike

*This all goes to hell if you were insane enough to "do the baby's
room", in which case it's no where near done, and you spend 25 hrs a day
painging, putting down trim, makeing sure the outlets are GFI...
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From tchur at optushome.com.au  Tue Aug 10 04:47:24 2004
From: tchur at optushome.com.au (Tim Churches)
Date: 10 Aug 2004 04:47:24 +1000
Subject: [albatross-users] Plans for next release?
In-Reply-To: <1092066240.11327.12.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
References: <1091646378.22584.2.camel@kernel>
	 <1091650604.1235.3.camel@emilio> <000e01c47a8a$dda5e990$0400a8c0@clapton>
	 <4111967E.6040805@object-craft.com.au> <1091696447.3092.19.camel@kernel>
	 <1091743284.18286.22.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
	 <1091775716.3092.44.camel@kernel>
	 <1091798244.24738.21.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
	 <1091858589.3092.140.camel@kernel> <000d01c47c7d$65e26ab0$0400a8c0@clapton>
	 <1091920860.1253.3.camel@emilio> <4116D6E6.3000304@object-craft.com.au>
	 <1092066240.11327.12.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
Message-ID: <1092077244.1233.29.camel@emilio>

On Tue, 2004-08-10 at 01:44, Michael C. Neel wrote:
> > Mother and baby are well.  Mark is very tired and has been ringing us up 
> > to check how things are going in his absence.  I suspect he is already 
> > thinking of work as an escape from the baby. (Anyone who has had a baby 
> > knows about this trick.)
> If it works like the States, daddy really doesn't have anything to do
> the first few days.  Mommy just wants to rest, the nurses keep the
> baby most of the time. 

Nuh. Unless Mum is seriously ill, she has to look after bub from hour
zero, and if it is an uncomplicated delivery, she will be sent home
within 24 hours. Life's tough these days.

-- 

Tim C

PGP/GnuPG Key 1024D/EAF993D0 available from keyservers everywhere
or at http://members.optushome.com.au/tchur/pubkey.asc
Key fingerprint = 8C22 BF76 33BA B3B5 1D5B  EB37 7891 46A9 EAF9 93D0





From neel at mediapulse.com  Thu Aug 12 04:24:34 2004
From: neel at mediapulse.com (Michael C. Neel)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:24:34 -0400
Subject: [albatross-users] WSGI 'pre-PEP'
Message-ID: <1092248673.13740.153.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>

I'm sure some of the Object Craft guys and others on this list are also
on the Web SIG list as well, and have seen the threads on this
proposal.  I've posted to the SIG before and will still say I do not
completely understand what problem this pep is trying to solve.  In the
past i've not really bothered to understand, but now in the context of
is it something I might need to address in SnakeSkin or not I curious on
other thoughts here.

The pep seems to want to alter the way an albatross app is setup and
used.  The goal seems to be gaining the ability of taking the
application to any server, but i think it misses the concept of there
may be a framework (like albatross) inbetween the server and app.  Also,
albatross already abstracts this though request objects, and after the
last round of refactoring these are trivial to add.

So, like I said I'm not 100% on what the pep is actually proposing, but
I'm curious for the users and developers of Albatross to weigh in on
this and how it affects our doesn't affect albatross.

Mike
__________________________________ 

michael.neel at mediapulse.com
vice president of information systems
865.675.4455 x30
800.380.4514

www.mediapulse.com
__________________________________
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From gabriel.cooper at mediapulse.com  Thu Aug 12 07:17:48 2004
From: gabriel.cooper at mediapulse.com (Gabriel Cooper)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:17:48 -0400
Subject: [albatross-users] WSGI 'pre-PEP' 
In-Reply-To: <1092248673.13740.153.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
References: <1092248673.13740.153.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
Message-ID: <411A8CFC.3020807@mediapulse.com>



Michael C. Neel wrote:

> I'm sure some of the Object Craft guys and others on this list are 
> also on the Web SIG list as well, and have seen the threads on this 
> proposal.


Since the reality is that no, no one is on the Web SIG python mailing 
list, in order to get some background on Mike's post, read here:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/web-sig/2004-August/thread.html

starting with "[Web-SIG] The rewritten WSGI pre-PEP   Phillip J. Eby"

direct link to thread-starting post:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/web-sig/2004-August/000518.html

Gabriel.

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From djc at object-craft.com.au  Thu Aug 12 10:02:50 2004
From: djc at object-craft.com.au (Dave Cole)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:02:50 +1000
Subject: [albatross-users] WSGI 'pre-PEP'
In-Reply-To: <1092248673.13740.153.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
References: <1092248673.13740.153.camel@mike.mediapulse.com>
Message-ID: <411AB3AA.6090509@object-craft.com.au>

Michael C. Neel wrote:
> I'm sure some of the Object Craft guys and others on this list are also 
> on the Web SIG list as well, and have seen the threads on this 
> proposal.  I've posted to the SIG before and will still say I do not 
> completely understand what problem this pep is trying to solve.  In the 
> past i've not really bothered to understand, but now in the context of 
> is it something I might need to address in SnakeSkin or not I curious on 
> other thoughts here.
> 
> The pep seems to want to alter the way an albatross app is setup and 
> used.  The goal seems to be gaining the ability of taking the 
> application to any server, but i think it misses the concept of there 
> may be a framework (like albatross) inbetween the server and app.  Also, 
> albatross already abstracts this though request objects, and after the 
> last round of refactoring these are trivial to add.
> 
> So, like I said I'm not 100% on what the pep is actually proposing, but 
> I'm curious for the users and developers of Albatross to weigh in on 
> this and how it affects our doesn't affect albatross.

Generally speaking it would be good to be able to throw away code from 
Albatross if there were standard modules that provided the same capability.

I suspect that every web toolkit that offers multiple deployment options 
has something like the Request class for each option.  If all toolkits 
were able to use a standard module or package from the Python library 
then everyone would benefit.

My reading of the pre-PEP is that the changes would be (mostly) 
invisible to the application programmer.

- Dave

-- 
http://www.object-craft.com.au